Episode 568 Global Town Hall Aug 2023

Notes

Tariq Rauf and Erika Simpson discuss the risks around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant and the health effects of plastics. Paul Werbos had annoyed the Russians by photographing an Arctic coalmining town.Jo Hayward-Haines is delighted by the proliferation of pollations gardens in place of lawns.

Guests:

Alexey Prokhorenko

Andre Kamenshikov

Tariq Rauf

Erika Simpson

Video

SUMMARY and TRANSCRIPT

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Ukraine, years, called, nuclear weapons, reactor, commons, war, Russia, heard, world, peace, put, talk, Ukrainian, nato, month, Tariq, ai, issues, Russians

SPEAKERS

Charles David Tauber, Peter Wadhams, Victor Kogan-Yasny, Leda Raptis, Alexey Prokhorenko, Erika Simpson, Alan Haber, Jo Hayward-Haines, Marilyn Krieger, Metta Spencer.

SUMMARY

During a Town Hall conversation on August 27, 2023, Metta Spencer hosted a discussion on various global issues. Tariq Rauf begins by mentioning a recent international seminar on planetary emergencies held in Sicily, where he discussed nuclear weapons and global security. He highlighted concerns about nuclear arms control and the failure of the recent Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Review Conference, as well as the precarious situation with the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant in Ukraine.

TRANSCRIPT

The following transcript has been machine-generated using “otter.ai.” Prior to using information from the transcript, please watch the video to catch any obvious errors.

Metta Spencer 00:00

This is Sunday, August the 27th 2023, which is the last Sunday in the month of August and the year 2023. And on the last Sunday, Project Save the World always invites people from around the world to get together by Zoom and talk about our issues. Most of the people who come are activists in one way or another, or some of them are researchers doing work on the very issues that the activists are concerned about. So our meeting is already on your way, I had a technical glitch, that meant that I wasn’t properly recording the first few minutes of it. But here we have Tariq Rauf in Austria, in Vienna, Vienna, talking about the issues that he is in a position to follow very closely, as somebody who knows a lot about nuclear matters, especially nuclear weapons. So let’s hear from Tariq first, and then we’ll go on and meet all my other friends.

Tariq Rauf 01:06

On the island of Sicily, the small village up on a hill, it’s all cobbled, and it’s very, very old building. And there is a foundation that was set up by professor Zichichi, about 60 years ago, and every year they do a big international seminar on planetary emergencies. And during the year, they provide training and education on physics and science and so on. So this year, I was invited for the first time and I was invited to speak on nuclear weapons and global security. But there were very interesting presentations on COVID on the oil market and energy transition on critical infrastructure, vulnerabilities of water, cybersecurity challenges. Small and modular nuclear reactors, pollution under water crisis, environmental contaminants and children’s health, particularly all the plastics that touch our food when we go to the supermarket to buy food that is already packaged in plastics that is already contaminating our food. And we are getting various chemicals from the plastics into our bodies. And there isn’t really any global regulation. So that was quite frightening that for all these years, we’ve been packaging foods in saran wrap and so on. And this has been transferring certain chemicals. And then there was also very several interesting session. So I really spoke about the current situation regarding nuclear arms control, particularly the three weeks of Non Proliferation Treaty meetings that were held in Vienna, from the 24th of July till the 11th of August. But they could not agree on anything. The five nuclear weapon states absolutely refused to agree to any any deadlines or timelines, or benchmarks for reducing nuclear weapons, they were all in a blame game. There was a lot of discussion on the safety of Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant in Ukraine, also on negative security assurances. So the current situation diplomatically on nuclear issues at the moment is deteriorating rather than improving after the failed NPT Review Conference that took place in New York a year ago in August last year. So now the five nuclear weapon states in different ways are either modernizing or consolidating their nuclear weapon capabilities, there is only one arms control treaty left standing between Russia and the United States and that is New START. Russians suspended their implementation of this treaty earlier in the year and US followed suit. So if this really collapses, then both sides can double the number of nuclear warheads on their existing delivery system that is their ballistic missiles and their bombers. They don’t need to make any more missiles or any more bombers, they can just upload more warheads per bomber and per ballistic missiles. So this is like, again, a very dangerous tendency. Nuclear weapons cooperation between the United States and the United Kingdom continues unchecked, where there is exchange of design information on nuclear warheads that the United Kingdom manufacturers to put on the ballistic missiles on British submarines which are the the missiles at least from the United States. When I raised this with the Western countries, they all look at me as if I am stark raving mad. And then the NATO countries that host nuclear weapons in Europe at the NPT, they came up with a new line, and this is a direct quote, “that NATO nuclear weapons have been integrated seamlessly into the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. And therefore, they are completely legitimate and there is no problem.” One country hosting these nuclear weapons, said that they would invite me to coffee and they would educate me on this situation on the complete seamless integration of NATO nuclear weapons into the Non Proliferation Treaty. So I’m waiting for that coffee invitation. And then also with regard to Australia’s acquisition of either British or American submarines, nuclear powered submarines, where there would be up to two metric tons or 2000 kilograms, of weapon grade highly enriched uranium completely outside of IAEA safeguards.This is also a new looming problem. And unfortunately, the Western countries, Canada included, are turning a blind eye to to this issue as well. So I think we need more activism in Canada to get the Canadian government and global affairs to be a little bit more responsible or be more active in promoting arms control and disarmament and also dealing with these existing challenges instead of dutifully lining up behind so called Alliance solidarity. So I’ll stop there for now.

Metta Spencer 06:42

Oh, boy. Well, I don’t want to stop you. But I shouldn’t hate to hear you continue. It’s too disappointing. Do you does anybody? Okay, so So Canada is not doing anything very progressive. But is, is there any hope for any NATO country? To, to break the logjam? I mean, I have heard people say that Germany could Well, that was maybe, I don’t know, tell me, is there any country that one should start working on before Canada that that seems more promising that way in NATO?

Tariq Rauf 07:27

While there is the so called Non Proliferation and disarmament initiative in which Canada is a member, along with Japan, and some other NATO countries, and also Mexico, and so on. They had a number of proposals. It was sort of interesting that all of the non nuclear weapon states and NATO countries included, all we’re calling for more nuclear disarmament from the five nuclear weapon states, all of them in different ways were insisting that the five nuclear weapons states need to report on their nuclear weapons activities and to develop a standardized reporting format, on numbers of weapons, dismantled on on station on nuclear weapon dot print, and so on. But, again, there was no agreement among the five to do so, to report in ways different than what they’re doing. The United States, of course, provides the most detailed reports, followed by Britain and France, whose reports are much less detailed. China really doesn’t reply a report at all Russia reports, but it’s also very minimalistic. So we really don’t have it’s more civil society that provides the information on on nuclear weapon holdings and estimates and so on. So there was an animated discussion on improving the access of civil society to NPT meetings. So fortunately, all of the NPT meetings during the second two weeks, were live cast on UN web TV, and you can go and find them the recordings online still. So that was, I think, a good innovation where people sitting at home could also follow NPT meetings without necessarily having to travel out to New York, Geneva or Vienna,

Metta Spencer 09:18

Would you put that in the in the chat box so that people can go there if they if they want.

Tariq Rauf 09:25

It’s un web TV and everyday un web TV covers all kinds of UN meetings across various UN stations including the Security Council

Metta Spencer 09:38

Okay, and they keep these recordings how long or?

Tariq Rauf 09:42

I think you just go by the calendar and select the month and the date and then the menus drops down showing which meetings took place on that day and one just scrolls down to the one that one is interested in and clicks on it. And recording starts I mean, I don’t know how far back they go but. they are still available on UN web TV.

Metta Spencer 10:07

Okay, thank you. Let’s, let’s go here comes Alexey Prokhorenko. from Warsaw. We have a good bunch of people here. Let’s put this on gallery so we can all get a good look at each other. I see Marilyn. I see Alan, I see Bill Leikam I see. Tariq, Paul Werbos You need to unmute yourself so we can say hello to you. Lena, you need to unmute. Alexey’s already got his. unmuted, and Rec. Erika’s in the car. So your sound quality isn’t the greatest anyway, there. Erika, but unmute yourself. So we can all say hello, hello. So Well, thank you so much to Tariq. I don’t think you said a thing that makes me happy. But what else do I expect? What did did make me interested? Is your report on on this planetary emergency?

Tariq Rauf 11:10

Emergency.

Metta Spencer 11:11

Yeah. Now, that is the first time I’ve seen anybody put the consumption of plastic in the same category as an emergency. And I think it’s been about 15 years since I started hearing about that plastic being bad things for us to consume. But at that point, it was described as one particular kind of plastic or at least one category of plastics. That I think is it can it’s the stuff that softens the plastic, at least at that point. And I was told that it was having an influence on male fertility that sperm counts of men, young men all around the world are are decreasing. But that’s been several years now is is? Is that a little bit of what you heard there or is there a lot more to report on that?

Tariq Rauf 12:13

Oh, that that was a point that was made and the presenter said that in the Western Hemisphere in 50 years all the men who will not be able to conceive children anymore because of low sperm counts. And also the P E T plastic. bottles are also not safe. Because P E T I don’t remember what that stands for. A lot of the new plastic bottles in which people buy water and soft drinks are called PE T and according to the presenter, even the PE T bottles are leaching certain chemicals into the contents of the those bottles.

Metta Spencer 12:52

C as in cat,

Tariq Rauf 12:54

no P as in Peter E as in Edward and T as in Tom.

Metta Spencer 12:59

Okay, well, now how are we going to know? I mean, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know what.

Tariq Rauf 13:04

It usually says on the bottle label what type of plastic it is where we have the recycling symbol on the plastic bottle that it can be recycled. And some of them say that they are PE T meaning that they are safer than whatever with other types of plastic container.

Metta Spencer 13:21

Oh they are safer? I thought that…

Tariq Rauf 13:24

No, they are not safer.

Metta Spencer 13:25

Oh, they are…

Tariq Rauf 13:26

But they claim to be safer. And according to this presenter, they are not. And then also, one can buy straws that are made of cardboard. But inside is the plastic lining. Or the cartons that we get milk in or other stuff is cardboard or some other reclaimed material, but the inside is a plastic lining to keep the liquid from weakening the structure of the TETRA container or so on. .

Metta Spencer 13:59

Well you know I think it’s been about 15 years since I first heard that. Why would it take so long for an obvious public health hazard to even get public attention at all? I mean, I haven’t heard any more lately about that. And of course I don’t think about it unless somebody reminds me to think about it.

Tariq Rauf 14:24

Well this presenter portrayed it more in the context of children’s health and the health of young children particularly.

Metta Spencer 14:34

So we can go ahead and consume this stuff and it’s too late for us. Is that…

Tariq Rauf 14:40

Well I think her her the presenter was trying to suggest that we need to find better solutions to plastic packaging. Although it’s better it’s safer or contains less harmful chemicals than at some point in the past but they are still not safe enough?

Metta Spencer 15:01

Yeah. Well, I’m not even very cooperative when it comes to garbage bags. Because, you know, I, I find that if you buy these re, you know, these supposedly non polluting garbage bags, they all break before you get to the garbage chute and it is not a happy day when that happens. So I I hoard these, they’re not even bringing them to me anymore. They’re now using paper bags and, and the man bringing in the putting them on my counter said they break. So he’s had paper bags that have broken because they’re not strong enough to carry all the stuff that that I buy at this exorbitant price. So my goodness, what a topic we have started off with. Okay. Thank you, Tariq If you have anything to add go, this. You’ve got the floor. So…

Tariq Rauf 16:06

No, I was thinking about perhaps Erika might want to comment on this new NATO line that NATO nuclear weapons have been seamlessly integrated into the Non Proliferation Treaty?

Metta Spencer 16:17

Yes, Erika, are you still with us? I don’t think so. I think she’s, oh, here you go. Yeah. Erika, tell us what you think.

Erika Simpson 16:26

Yeah, I was mentioning that a few things that Tariq touched on number one. I read they’re reaching critical will newsletter and that by Ray Atchison, and others helps to bring the news every day and also every week of the NPT Review Conference preparatory committee. So it’s called reaching critical will and you can get it by email. And I found it to be extremely useful over the years to tell us about each government’s approach, less so about NATO’s approach. And Tariq mentioned the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. I wrote an op ed for the hill times last week on that which they featured in their weekly newspaper on page 11. And as a result, my university featured it and so on. It was about Zaporizhzhia, and then also what can be done. And I suggested United Nations emergency peace service that would be established or for the for only for the power plant. Obviously Ukraine and Russia would not agree to it. But the idea was that there would be some sort of a UNOPSwould be put in place now. So I did hear back from people at NATO who condemned the idea, and said it was naive and idealistic and also heard back from people in Canada like Robin Collins, Walter Dorn, and the world Federalist Fergus Watt. And so on meaning that the idea was worth pursuing, but there would be a UN veto, which is not necessarily true, because the UNEF 1 and unit was not vetoed by the Security Council, it was put forward as a general assembly resolution. And so it might be possible to in it, but anyway, another person wrote me from who’s in charge of NATO operations, former now a professor, and he said that he thought that the Americans would be ready with a black swan, which was called a black swan event where if it does somehow melt down, then the Americans would come in. How would that happen Tariq I don’t know, you know, about the IEA. In the plans, they surely must have some kind of a plan. If that if the last power line is is cut, or if there’s mines. So I really want to focus today on the Zaporizhzhia. Yeah, I know that pesticides, Saran Wrap are evil and wrong, and I’m in the process myself of wrapping everything properly. But I do think that the big thing on the horizon, in the next two months would be a possible nuclear meltdown in Europe, which would affect billions of people, which is what I wrote in the Op Ed. Thanks for this opportunity.

Tariq Rauf 19:14

Yeah, so Ericka, you know, the Zaporizhzhia power plant has four electric power lines to the three 750 kilowatt lines, and one 330 kilowatt line. So the two of the 750, high voltage kilowatt lines have been destroyed. So there are only two power lines left the 750 and the 330. And so it is unfortunately the Ukrainians who are shelling the power line. There are 20 generators at Zaporizhzhia, that’s three diesel generators for each of the six reactors. That’s two extra ones. And so whenever the power line goes down, these generators provide power five of this six reactors are in cold shutdown, so they don’t need very much power. One reactor is kept in what’s called Hot shutdown because they need to generate steam for various purposes. So these diesel generators have enough fuel to keep the power going. So there isn’t loss of station power, and then the power line goes up after three or four days. And then the whole cycle repeats itself, and also the spent fuel cooling plans. According to the state national regulatory Inspectorate of Ukraine can also survive without power, the water temperature would rise to about 70 degrees, but it wouldn’t go above that. With the collapse of the dam, the reservoir of the from which the power plant and cross cooling water have depleted a little bit about one centimeter a day, but a new canal is being that to provide water from another source to bring up the level of that reservoir that provides the cooling water for this Zaporizhzhia power plant. So the six reactors themselves have not been shelled, and nobody here is actually concerned about somebody hitting the reactors or there being a reactor meltdown. Of course, no one can rule out anything completely. But the whole situation is operations about is about the power lines being shelled going offline, coming back online, Russian troops, of course, being in the power plant, and IAEAis not happy that the Russians have put in military equipment inside the reactor halls, including small tanks and so on, which was unnecessary stress to the Ukrainian staff. And the Ukrainian staff stay a few days, and then they have to cross the front line to go to the village of Enerhodar where they live, which is on the Ukrainian area controlled by Ukraine. So of course, the staff are not very happy, they are away from their families, they’re stressed because they’re in a power plant under occupation. So the IEA has stationed six safety personnel who rotate through the plant every two or three weeks to provide technical assistance for ensuring that all the safety systems are working. So for the time being, I wouldn’t be concerned about a reactor meltdown at Zaporizhzhia. People might disagree with that. But that’s my view

Erika Simpson 22:41

I’ve written two op eds on this and both in the Hill Times, and one of them pointed out and the editors have pointed out that the Ukrainians and the Russians are shelling. So you’re saying just the Ukrainians are shelling their own plant.

Tariq Rauf 22:57

Russians have occupied the plant. So why would they shell the plant itself?

Erika Simpson 23:02

I don’t know. I mean, …

Tariq Rauf 23:04

They’re not, everyone here in Vienna knows that the shelling is, unfortunately from the Ukrainian side, and it’s only on the power line. So the Ukrainians are not stupid. And it’s basically to keep this issue in the news. So you haven’t heard anything about the power lines for a while. There’s other news. For a while there was the story about mines being put on the roofs of reactor unit three and four. The very next day BBC published a satellite image which showed that there were none. So these theatrics go on from both sides to keep the issue in the news. Unfortunately, in the IAEA Board of Governors, there is no stomach to agree on a resolution or a decision that nuclear power plants should not be subject, it should not be in a war zone, because some countries want to leave open the option of bombing the Iranian nuclear power plants. So there’s a lot of hypocrisy on this all around. And different people have different interests, unfortunately.

Erika Simpson 24:08

Tariq are you hearing that the Russians are bombing the hotel where the IAEA team is staying? That is what I read in an IAEA?

Tariq Rauf 24:17

I would doubt that very much, because the Russians are very happy that the IAEA team came there. The Ukrainians Of course, we’re not because it again is another blow to the sovereignty claim of Ukraine over the nuclear power plants, which obviously are their property on their territory, which is under occupation. So there’s a lot of this disinformation that comes out every now and then I have not seen a report from the IAEA about that the last time I checked, and I can go to the IAEA website. Again, I’m sure the IAEA would.

Erika Simpson 24:55

From a UN official on the IAEA press release So I used it, but I ended up cutting it because I only had 700 words. So essentially, the female I remember was a female UN official claiming that the Russians were bombing the hotel where the IAEA team is staying. So that would, that’s quite serious. But I can send you that we don’t need to get into that. But I think the main we’re worried about is reactor four, which I understand last week went into cold was going into cold storage.

Tariq Rauf 25:32

Yeah, so they are switching the reactors, from cold storage to hot storage, IAEA wants all reactors to be in cold storage, but active and to have an alternative source to generate the steam that is needed.

Metta Spencer 25:49

Explain, what what, what’s the difference? Cold and hot storage. That’s not familiar to me.

Tariq Rauf 25:55

Well in a cold storage, the reactor is completely shut down and therefore it does not need it is not generating much heat other than that, from the fuel, which is already in the reactor. In a hot shutdown, it means that it is basically taking over and it’s not generating, it’s not producing electricity, it’s producing a very minimal amount of steam for various purposes.

Metta Spencer 26:21

And those types of storage. Have a meltdown.

Tariq Rauf 26:26

I’m sorry.

Metta Spencer 26:27

Could, could there be a meltdown in both types of storage or only one?

Tariq Rauf 26:32

Well, the meltdown would be if the reactor was running, and it lost power. And as a result of losing power, it lost the cooling water. But after the Fukushima accident, all the reactors, particularly in Europe, went through stress stress, and they had to put in two backup systems for power and also for cooling water. So at the moment, unless somebody directly shells, one of the reactors and the reactor containment domes are strong enough to withstand certain types of fire. The spent fuel ponds also don’t have a problem with with meltdown, so to speak. That’s more of a reactor problem. So Erika, the latest update on the IAEA website is from the 22nd of August, which basically is talking about various things, but it…

Erika Simpson 27:26

Just [inaudible] can’t quite remember the date of it. But there was a woman there quoting saying that the hotel was being struck. The only reason…

Tariq Rauf 27:35

Yeah, I don’t know who this person is. There are no UN person, they are the only people they are IAEA people. And they when the reports this is now IAEA eport number 180. So anytime there’s something to report, the IAEA puts up a statement online. And at the moment there isn’t any. So this is, I think part of the propaganda war around the whole Zaporizhzhia issue. But anyway.

Metta Spencer 28:04

Well, thank you. Is Andre here. Where did you go? Andre, I’m looking for you. Because you are you’re in, where did you go? I don’t see you. Maybe maybe Andre is not with us now. But

Andre Kamenshikov 28:19

Yeah I am.

Metta Spencer 28:20

You are okay. Because you’re in in Ukraine. You ought to have a turn next to talk about what’s going on in that area?

Andre Kamenshikov 28:32

Well, I’m not actually I don’t know much you probably know more than I do. Or the people here know more than I do what’s actually happening in the Zaporizhzhia area around the power plant. So I can’t say much about this. I’m very skeptical. I don’t think it’s realistic to get a civil society media civil society mission there. You know, I understand that the good intentions, but I just don’t think it’s realistic at this point. But again, who knows? Who knows? A lot, I think will depend that will be decided over the next couple of months. Because no one knows whether Ukraine will be successful. Ukraine is trying to advance in the south. In those areas that we’re discussing right now. So far, it didn’t reach much in terms of its expenses expected to counter offensive that there were big hopes to, but the battle is not over yet. We will probably know more by the end of October, it will be obvious because you know, the counter assessments can go you know along into November and so forth because it just won’t be physically possible at that point due to the weather and the climate and the soil to you know, expect any serious military advances, so in a few months, we will have either a situation that will be similar to the one we have now, it may be somewhat more stable because for a while there will probably be a pause in the fighting next to that area, or it might change drastically. And you know, if Ukraine is successful, then of course, you know, the, our plan will change hands and will become again under Ukrainian control. So, either…

Metta Spencer 30:32

If you could lean at the mic a little closer, so

Andre Kamenshikov 30:36

I’m speaking right into the mic. Now, I don’t know,, can you hear me?

Metta Spencer 30:38

That’s better, that’s better, keep going.

Andre Kamenshikov 30:41

So basically, what I’m saying is that, probably toward the second half of October, we will see whether the situation is similar to the way it is today. Or if it is different, in that particular area around the Zaporizhzhia powerplant, because that is exactly the area where today Ukrainian military is trying to go on the offensive. And so far, it had limited successes, but the battle is going on. And it will probably go on until mid October or so. And you know, then it will be clear whether the Ukrainians were successful or not. So, one way or another, there will probably be a little bit more certainty in that particular area of the frontlines in the second half of October.

Metta Spencer 31:41

Well now, I read or have the impression from I don’t know where that one reason they’re not making much progress is that they didn’t get the planes say, say they needed. They’ve been complaining all along, that they really, really need planes. Now, I think Denmark, and maybe somebody else has offered to give them planes. I don’t I don’t imagine they can get them and get everybody trained and ready to use them.

Andre Kamenshikov 32:06

That won’t happen till probably next spring. So it’s not going to have a direct effect on the events of the next few months.

Metta Spencer 32:13

Okay, that’s what I figured. But if they had them now, is it everybody’s agreement that that would make a big difference that maybe the real reason they’re not doing so well? Is they do not have the planes or the equipment they need?

Andre Kamenshikov 32:30

This is war? We don’t know. We simply don’t know.

Metta Spencer 32:33

Yeah, okay.

Andre Kamenshikov 32:34

We can, you know, it’s it’s a it’s one of the excuses that often is heard today in Ukraine, why any progress is so slow, in terms of liberating territory. But, you know, is that true? Will planes be a game changer? Or will would just, you know, not lead to much? Who knows? It’s impossible to predict.

Metta Spencer 33:00

Okay, now that I got you pinned down? Let me change to a different question, because I had, there’s a party a couple of days ago here. And, and we have an another party on Tuesday through which you’re all invited by zoom. But the thing was some of the people there, were talking about having had indirect contact with the peace movement in Russia and in Ukraine. And my impression is, there ain’t no such thing. That it’s not possible for people to be anything like organized enough to call them up a peace movement. You might find a few people here or there. But could they do enough at Tell me, is it possible for any group of people to continue functioning as doing peace work? I’m thinking for example, what’s happened with the Moscow Helsinki group? I had a conversation about a year ago with Dimitri Makarov, who was I think in [Volnege (sp)] as I think in, is he I think that Ponomarov had already left the country a couple of years ago. Do people all have to flee the way you did? Or are there people still able to function at all as a peace as peace activists in Russia?

Alexey Prokhorenko 34:29

I just can say a couple of words. As far as I know, the situation. First of all, hello, everyone. Hello, dear colleagues and friends, and I’m happy to be here once again. One month later. As for the situation in Russia, I would say that it’s not really possible to do anything openly in the the country right now. Because all independent, more or less independent organizations or initiatives have been closed down. All the way from independent media, independent newspapers, radio stations, to organizations like the International Memorial, or the Helsinki group, they’re having most of them have been declared either foreign agents or so called unwanted organizations. Cooperations with the both of those categories can be a can entail a penalty up to a sentence in prison, which is why any activity that I can ever imagine of inside Russia would be undercover would be clandestine. And so there as far as I know, there are Navalny’s supporters still active in the country, but they this is more like a guerrilla story guerrilla organization. Now there is no open, no open discussions on any matters. For example, Greenpeace has been declared a foreign agent, and then an unwanted organization. And if you cooperate with them, corporations may range from being employed by the organization to for example, being interviewed by its people, so it’s very widely understood. It can it can really be punished by a sentence in a prison. So no, it’s an atmosphere of fear and repression. And I think everything that’s going on, and I’m sure things are going on, it’s all it’s all under the ground.

Metta Spencer 37:11

So you don’t have any way of getting familiar with what’s really going on.

Alexey Prokhorenko 37:15

Well, I hear anecdotal evidence from my friends from my fellow thinkers, from my colleagues and people do people do things, but there’s no open discussion about that. It’s more it’s more like a gorilla story.

Metta Spencer 37:36

Okay, Andre, how about in Ukraine? I we were talking about the attitude of Ukrainian peace workers. And I said, as far as I’m concerned, they all support Zelenskyy you know, approach. Except for I do know this some guy named Yuri starts with an S. Who’s.

Andre Kamenshikov 38:06

[Inaudible] Yeah, I know him.

Metta Spencer 38:10

We talk about what that’s like, how many people well are you in touch with those folks? And and do you even get along with those folks?

Andre Kamenshikov 38:23

With whom?

Metta Spencer 38:24

Well, with the people who I would say are real old-fashioned paciifists you know.

Andre Kamenshikov 38:31

I try to get along with everyone. That’s my approach. I believe that people who are sincere pacifists certainly should have their rights protected in Ukraine. And the fact that they are under some pressure right now. And, you know, there have been some charges against Fury certainly isn’t the good side. However, we should also remember that, you know, this is nothing compared to the the absolutely criminal behavior of the Russian government compared to to anyone in Russia, who shows any sign of dissent. You know, there’s just a long list of 1000s and 1000s of cases. So, I, I definitely am on the side of Yuri and his colleagues who stand for, you know, the right not to, you know, for for pacifism in Ukraine. I think it’s a big mistake if Ukrainian authorities tried to put forward any charges against them and so forth. I also understand the position of the majority between civil society that is in support of armed struggle today to liberate their country that was invaded. I tried to press and you know, that’s my position that what I’m saying is I’m not against armed struggle, but I’m I tried to say that there are many other things that can be done, not wildly, that can bring, help Ukraine, you know, like nonviolent struggle, or like seeing, you know, stop demonizing all Russian people, which is a big political mistake, I think that Ukraine has done today, you know, and try to find allies within Russian society itself. So there is a lot that can be done, as well as a more thought through policy toward Ukrainian citizens who are today under occupation, especially those who have been under Russian control for the last nine years in the Donbass and in Crimea. So that’s definitely things that can be done. Again, I respect the position of different groups in Ukraine, and I hope that the Ukrainian government will have enough sense not to go oh, you know, against the handful of, you know, pacifists that they do have in the country today. Ah, it again, again, it’s important to understand, we hear about some negative things happening in Ukraine. Unfortunately, that’s true. But we also should keep in mind that, you know, the same thing when you look at Russia are worth 1000 fold more.

Metta Spencer 41:54

Thank you. Okay, I think we should give room to a wider conversation. Now we’ve talked to almost an hour, close to it. I’m glad to see some old faces that I was a little bit worried about. Peter Wadhams. I’m delighted that you’re with us. You’re feeling better. I know. Peter has been in hospital. How are you doing now?

Peter Wadhams 42:21

Well, I’m not actually better but I sort of less bad I suppose. I just still still have a lot of symptoms left over from from COVID. And from the the other thing, I’ve got the, which is the …

Metta Spencer 42:50

I take heart for the fact that you’re here with us. I can see you at least. And I want to say hi to Paul Werbos. Also, Paul unmute yourself, because I want to ask you what you’ve been up to. I’ve been getting messages from aboard a ship or someplace where you’ve been cruising. And Paul and Peter have you’ve both worked together a little bit. I think maybe I don’t know whether you’ve ever finished whatever projects you were doing together, but you’re going to write something jointly. Paul, how are you and what’s going on in your world?

Paul Werbos 43:25

Well, I share the same world with you guys.

Metta Spencer 43:30

Alright.

Paul Werbos 43:31

And there have been incredible ups and downs there days when I feel like we’re all going to die and days when I figure we’ve got hope of fixing things. This past month, I was relatively quiet. Because when they predicted a huge heatwave here and wildfires, my wife said, okay, we’ve got a simple solution. And she found a quick cruise to the Arctic Circle. And I posted some photos and now I’m in deep shit with the Russians. Because I included photos of a major base that the Russians have up near the Arctic Circle. That’s supposed to be part of Norway, but there’s some question. There are some questions about whose it is and what they’re planning to do up there in this northern part of the Arctic Circle.

Adam Wynne 44:20

Was that here in Pittsburgh. Spitsbergen, Svalbard, Spitsbergen? Pyramiden?

Paul Werbos 44:27

Yes, Pyramiden. So I’m not the only one who knows about it. I’m glad someone asked about it.

Adam Wynne 44:34

That’s an old Soviet mining town. But they’ve held on to it for some time.

Paul Werbos 44:37

Okay, okay. If you send me something on it, I might be able to get away with no, I cannot. Okay, I’m in deep shit. But the bottom line is, yeah, that’s a place that people in your business. The peace studies should really be working on because it’s, it’s part of that picture. It’s not part of the world that I monitor. I just accidentally landed there. But the pictures we took by accident were enough to get some people deeply upset.

Adam Wynne 45:08

But Svalbard, so the administration of Svalbard, which as you say is a Norwegian territory they call Pyramiden, a living museum. So it is open to the public. And I was unaware that the Russians now have active military applications there, because it was originally a coal mining district, I think. But they [inaudible]

Paul Werbos 45:26

I’m not claiming that they have an active military operation there. I am not claiming that, now as for what they do have. Apparently, there’s some sensitivities about it.

Adam Wynne 45:35

Oh, dear. Okay. I know Jan Mayen, and another one of the islands out there, it’s playing a pretty critical role in monitoring North Atlantic. And it’s a bit further south, but it’s right between Greenland and the Faroe Islands. The Pyramiden is very far north. It’s right on I think the northern coast of Svalbard, isn’t it?

Paul Werbos 45:51

I would be happy to send Metta the link.

Adam Wynne 45:55

Yeah.

Paul Werbos 45:55

And if they shoot me make sure you download the photos. I don’t really think that will happen. But we live in a very strange world these days.

Metta Spencer 46:03

Well, let me ask Peter Wadhams do you know anything about this place, Peter, because you’re in northern Arctic guy.

Peter Wadhams 46:11

Going there quite often. In fact, one of the amusing things is that there’s a jetty where coal is exported, this is still an active coal mine. And the the last couple of times I’ve been there, there’s been there, Coller loading up at the jetty. And when I looked at where it was bound, it turns out that he’s going the regular trade is with Newcastle. And there’s a there’s a ancient joke that the most useless thing you can do is to send coals to Newcastle, because that’s well, because Newcastle was the center for coal mining. So. So here there is now an active trade in coals to Newcastle, which illustrates the insanity of the world at the moment.

Paul Werbos 47:19

I was thinking about Peter a lot on this trip. If I had better internet connection, I would have been in touch. But you know, even satellites have problems as you get to the Arctic Circle. But one of the things I learned was that there had been a massive plan by a very serious businessman that would dump fertilizer to exactly the right channel of the Gulf Stream to accelerate the kind of things Peter Ward has been talking about. We could have been in trouble with a really serious ocean problem years ago, except the man had mysterious strange, bad luck. And they were all wondering, Where did this mysterious bad luck come from? And they’re still trying to figure it out. But thanks to the mysterious bad luck, they didn’t dump a whole bunch of phosphates, right where the Archaia would just love to eat them up. Oh, this was a very interesting trip.

Metta Spencer 48:14

Oh my, Okay, well, thank you.

Adam Wynne 48:17

Sorry, Pyramiden has also the world record for the northern most statue of Lenin, and I think the statue is still there in the community, whereas in most former Soviet places Lenin was pulled down decades ago, there’s a famous photo of Lenin’s head in the parking lot of a KFC outside Moscow.

Paul Werbos 48:37

That’s one of the photos I got in trouble with. I have pictures proving the what you’re saying is true. And a few other things.

Metta Spencer 48:43

Yeah, well, in fact, as I understand it, they’re going around putting statues back up of not only Lenin but also of even Stalin.

Adam Wynne 48:52

Oh boy.

Metta Spencer 48:53

We don’t need to go there. You know Leda had her hand up a long time ago. And I’ve made you wait. So now you get to speak Leda.

Leda Raptis 49:03

I was just wondering, is there any chance of starting negotiations? Can we fought the guts inside out both of them to start to decide to start negotiations? And also, I read somewhere, I don’t know if there’s any truth to it. I mean, other members in the group may know better. I read that they Biden wants to get elected, like Bush way back. And that’s why he invaded Iraq. So this is why he said that they want to the NATO to expand, and this would lead to war in Ukraine, because we didn’t have that is the Minister mean the President of the US to get elected they need the war. And when, for example, when Reagan was in trouble, his popularity was going down. He invaded, I think, was it Panama or something like that? Grenada? Grenada. So I was wondering if there is any truth to this. For example, Biden said that the about three months after the beginning of the war, he said when there was a meeting about negotiation, so none of that in Turkey actually, southern Turkey. Biden said that no, no, no, now it’s an opportunity to weaken Russia. That’s why we’re not going to negotiate. So there’s no hope. Like, if that’s the mentality, but is could it be any truth to the fact that he wants to get elected again? That’s why he wants a war. That’s what, I’m not sure if it’s true, or what if there’s any truth…

Paul Werbos 50:37

Maybe I’m closer to Washington, DC than anyone else on this call? Yes, I have some right to make my speculations. I am very worried about the coming year, I’ve been focusing more on the climate and internet issues as Metta knows, we all have to specialize. But I’ve been feeling very guilty that we are entering a period where there are other conflicts that really demand a lot of more complete attention. But I would say the biggest conflict we are worried about right here, to be honest, is 2024. And the conflict between such strange personalities as Donald Trump and Biden, both suffering from medical problems, both heavily reliant on outside advisors. That’s the biggest concern here. There are actually people here who are worried about the possibility of race war in the United States. We don’t know how it’s going to turn out. And it’s not my specialty. But sometimes I feel guilty because I have to pay attention to other issues, which are also life or death.

Metta Spencer 51:54

Thank you, Paul. That’s cheering. I feel better already. Anybody else on this one? I think we’re really in over our heads when we began speculating about the outcome of the next election, or even how people are going to campaign for it. But if anybody wants to go there, I’ll let you attempt to.

Erika Simpson 52:20

[I’ll say] something. Metta. I’ve been engaging with some Americans who are working on peace. So Professor Frederick Pearson, who is the former director of Wayne State, University’s Peace and Conflict Studies program, and also other people. And one of the things we’ve been talking about is exactly what Leda was talking about, which is, how much is the military industrial complex in the United States, contributing to the fact that they won’t go to the negotiating table?

Leda Raptis 52:52

Yeah, exactly.

Erika Simpson 52:53

In the New York Times that 500,000 Ukrainians and Russians have died.

Leda Raptis 52:58

Yeah.

Erika Simpson 52:58

So as a mother of a child.

Leda Raptis 53:01

It’d be nice to get them to sit down

Erika Simpson 53:04

How many have to die before they go to the negotiating table. And so how do we push them to the table? In my article last week, I wrote about carrots we need to dangle carrots, not just sticks and say, if you do go to the negotiating table, then we will give you this and that more more carrots rather than always sticks. And I am concerned that Americans don’t want to go the negotiating table because of the constituencies that profit from selling and giving Ukraine billions of dollars worth of equipment. So that whole argument you can call it Neo Marxist if you want. But some people call it Wag the Dog here Leda, it’s the idea that the Americans go to war in order to up their standing before they go into an election a national election.

Leda Raptis 53:54

Exactly. Repeats itself.

Metta Spencer 53:58

Andre has his hand up. Andre?

Andre Kamenshikov 54:01

Yes. First, I would ask, I want do I want? Of course I want peace. Everybody wants peace. My question is, would it be right to go to negotiation negotiations with Hitler in 1944?

Leda Raptis 54:17

No dead bodies.

Andre Kamenshikov 54:18

Now Now. Now. Now. Look, that today the attitude in Ukraine is predominantly that Ukraine has been invaded. It has the right to protect itself and protect its people and to liberate its territory. And that’s what the majority of people today in Ukraine believe that’s the reality. Are there people that would want to differ with that? Yes, there are. Might the public opinion change? Yes. But this this war is not continued by the US it’s not a war of the US military industrial complex. It’s a war that was imposed on Ukraine by Putin and his government, by by the regime in the Kremlin that actually has been fighting his own people for over 20 years now, you know, he was all these 20 years, he was fighting against his own people. He was killing his own people for the last nine years, but especially for the last year and a half, without any doubt in mass, he has been fighting a war against Ukraine. So that’s that’s the reality we face today. And we need to understand this. It’s not it’s not a proxy war, Ukraine, the people in Ukraine have agency, they have the right to decide whether they want to fight for…

Erika Simpson 55:43

Ukraine is using drones against Moscow. And the big concern is that because Ukrainians are taking the war off Ukrainian sovereign territory, and moving it toward Moscow using drones, because of the whole mutiny of Prigozhin, and all the implications of maybe there’s internal conflict, people are worried around the world that we’re being drawn into a proxy war, that could lead to a World War because of nuclear weapons. And so it’s time to go to the negotiating table, it doesn’t mean that there’s going to be a frozen conflict, it doesn’t mean that Ukraine will necessarily lose it’s just time to get to the table.

Andre Kamenshikov 56:22

Look, I don’t mind negotiations obviously I’m for negotiations, however, I believe that people I just today listened to a program where some guy from Washington and someone that probably you know, knows what he’s speaking about, has been speaking about exactly what you mentioned, the, the fears, that, you know, if, if Putin loses power, someone like Prigozhin comes to power and so forth, things will be even worse. I think these fears have no basis for one simple reason. Any person today that will come to power after Putin will in Russia will, in order to stay in power will have to offer something to his own society, and especially to his own elite, not because of the goodness of his heart, but simply simply because that’s the only way he can stay in power. And the first thing that he will do is try to find some kinds of settlement with Ukraine and stop the senseless war. That’s that’s that’s the you know, as soon as Putin is gone to whoever else is, he might be worse than Putin personally, but he will need to do that if he doesn’t want to stay in power, if Prigozhin would come would take Moscow on June 24th the war would they ended June. There would be other bad things happening in Russia, maybe but the war in Ukraine would end in before the end of the month. Now, he didn’t do that. And now he’s dead because Putin killed him. Okay. But But that’s, you know, that’s the world where we live.

Metta Spencer 58:11

Thank you. Alexey, you have your hand and I want to say hi to Ingrid, Summerkorn. I’ll get to you in a minute Ingrid deer. Alexey.

Alexey Prokhorenko 58:20

I will just I was just going to say one thing that seems important to me concerning negotiations, negotiations is always a good thing. I mean, it’s it’s better than shooting in generally. But we have to face the reality of negotiations, negotiations are only possible when both both sides both parties mean to negotiate when they are serious about their intentions to make a deal to make compromise, make a compromise. But in our present situation, we see a complete lack of trust between the parties, be it the West be it Ukraine be it Russia. And we see even worse, we see a complete lack of credibility. And here, I mean in Russia here. I mean, Putin personally, he’s not the person you would trust because he is he has been so insincere to say the least, he has, as he has repeatedly said that he only will abide by his by by any agreements if they are favorable to him. But that’s not when an agreement is favorable and you abide by it. It’s not it’s not an agreement anymore. It’s not your word of honor. Your Word of honor is when when it’s unfavorable to you, but you still stick to it because you have promised. I think there is in the global politics, there is no personality that that would be farther from that credibility than Putin is currently. In that, in that light, I don’t think any negotiation is possible. It’s only probably a mock negotiation at best.

Paul Werbos 1:00:26

I guess maybe,…

Andre Kamenshikov 1:00:28

Maybe I just add one word. A good example. Two months ago, Putin, when this coup attempt was happening in Russia, he promised to Mr. Prigozin that Mr. Prigozhin will be safe and free of any charges. And that was the condition when Prigozhins [inaudible] marched in Moscow. Two months later, he’s been killed. So that’s, that’s that’s how much this is. This is a personal problem is of Putin to a person that he knew for 30 years, you know, he gave a gave him his problems and kill him two months later. Okay. So, you know.

Paul Werbos 1:01:04

There’s another issue about negotiations. And what we can agree with in arms control, and in arms control, the technical means to ensure and monitor compliance is right at the center, about whether an agreement means something or not. I was very impressed. You mentioned the United Nations website. At the United Nations website, there was a meeting of the Security Council just a couple of weeks ago, on the creation of a new UN agency for artificial intelligence, the Secretary General was pushing that very hard. The Security Council meeting is up on the website. And at that meeting, it was very amazing to me to see how the politics unfold. There are hordes and hordes of lobbyists who want to use this as a way to get money for their personal projects. And a lot of UN efforts have become useless because they listened to those people. But at this meeting of the Security Council, the major powers all said, there is something we want from this new UN agency. And it’s not what the lobbyists were asking for. All of the great military powers with one exception. All of the great military powers were saying we would like this new UN agency to include some technical capacity, technical capacity, vital to compliance and monitoring. They wanted a new system using the most advanced artificial intelligence to provide open transparent warning to any nation on Earth, which might be attack from the sky. And I found that very exciting. It’s exciting because there is new science. But I found it depressing because most of the people trying to make money and organize it are not interested in new science. And so they could very easily just throw the money away. And we’ll never develop the capability. But I personally was excited by the hope that maybe we might create open new science, that would be critical to the monitoring process. I still think there’s some hope on good days, I think the hope is real. on bad days, I look at the lobbyists and give up.

Metta Spencer 1:03:23

Well, what can anybody do? Could any government and foreign governments could Canada could any, you have any good ideas how to promote this?

Paul Werbos 1:03:33

I know that there is a global digital compact group under the United Nations. And I know there is a group creating an advisory committee to help create this new AI agency. And those things are advertised on the web. They are listening to opinions from groups that might be relevant and might be stakeholders. So I think they’re opportunities to weigh in, to try to get them to stop paying attention to getting money to the local bosses, and try to get it to global survival.

Metta Spencer 1:04:06

Well, you know, this, I don’t like this term global, digital Global Compact, because it’s almost so similar to just plain Global Compact. That’s the organization of corporations that I think Kofi Annan put together of corporations that want to be good guys and obey them, you know, responsible people. So I think they ought to pick a different name that is less confusing.

Paul Werbos 1:04:36

Well, I’m not the Secretary-General. So I don’t know why he named it that way.

Metta Spencer 1:04:41

All right. Nevermind if he wants to. I’m glad that he’s he’s actually doing it. Maybe we need to talk a bit about developments in AI. I know that you are. You see that as an of course you’re you’re the guy who should know, being sort of the father of the whole thing, that you are concerned about the real risks of AI, I personally use GPT four about 20 times a day. And it does everything for me. It you know, it tells me what kind of makeup to use. It tells me how far two cities are apart. It tells me how much baking power to put into my biscuits. It anything I want to know, it tells me. Yesterday, I was I was trying, I was using it and it gave me a good suggestion. It said, why don’t you do web scraping? And I didn’t know what web scraping was. But I looked it up and yeah, that’s that’s something I should use. It knew what I needed to do. And was giving me good tips. Oh, I am so happy with this thing it is so good. And I can’t believe that everybody is scared of it. I think it’s my best friend already.

Paul Werbos 1:06:05

So okay, yeah, no, there’s a huge amount of debate. And this is one of the two issues I really have put energy into. But one of the things that terrifies me is how much people know which is not true. Bottom line, there are a lot of things that commentators will tell you about AI for good or ill on in either direction that are totally incorrect. And it’s kind of scary. I think people are making money by pretending to know stuff they don’t know. So GPT they use the term now generative artificial intelligence GAI. There are even I hate to say it idiot dishonest commentators who will tell you oh, we used to worry about artificial general intelligence. Now it’s the new thing. It’s GAI, and everything else is obsolete. Well, right now, there are a few companies making some money from a product, which is very powerful. But it’s absolutely nothing compared to what’s already in the pipeline. The capacities of things like chat GPT, they can do tremendous things. But they can also be very badly misused, I might think of it as like having a certain kind of dog. You know, there are a lot of times in life, when we have a certain kind of dog. I think of the spirit of Loki, and leashed, it can be very useful, unleashed, it can kill you, and you have to know where to put the leash. But, but you need to understand that all the generative AI that you’re hearing about, thats making waves now, is based on a foundation of a few basic methods. And to be honest, there are methods I developed forty years ago. And there’s trivial applications of things that we developed 40 years ago, it’s just a matter of people getting around to applying them. And I promise you, the applications in the pipeline now in places you haven’t heard about, and places like the military, the kinds of applications I have seen with my own eyes in the military are way beyond anything you imagine if you’re looking in the world of Chat GPT. I have certainly seen experts appear on TV saying, . Say, I know x is impossible. And I saw x two weeks before with my own eyes really working as it happened for a military contract. So so it’s a real challenge. One of the reasons why I hope the UN agency works, is because we need a forum where it’s sufficiently open and transparent, that we don’t repeat the kind of confusion that was in WW1 where nobody knows what’s going on.

Metta Spencer 1:08:50

Yeah, What i want to know Paul is, is there any way I can keep my new friend GPT 4 who does all these wonderful stunts for me? And it’s so helpful. I honestly get out I save probably a couple of hours a day in work by using this thing. And and I want to keep it but I hear you that it’s going to be dangerous. How do I know? How can we keep this good, good friend. And not…

Paul Werbos 1:09:21

how do you keep your dog on a leash? It would help us keep the dogs on a leash better if we had, if the UN agency were helping people to understand what their dog is, and how to control these kinds of dogs.

Metta Spencer 1:09:39

It do I have to worry about this. This thing that tells me you know? I ask it personal questions sometimes.

Paul Werbos 1:09:49

If you trust it too far, you’ll get confused because there’s a lot of garbage in garbage out. There’s a lot of repeating popular wisdom that sells in certain quarters. That’s not true. You You got to be very careful about controlling that dog.

Adam Wynne 1:10:03

If I may, if I may add a comment there, there was a chatbot a number of years ago, I’m trying to remember the name of it, where it was an early form of this AI that it wasn’t as detailed as Chat GPT. But it got into a lot of trouble when the imported the entire contents of Urban Dictionary, which is a slang dictionary into the AI system, which suddenly taught the AI how to swear, and how to use offensive language at people and immediately develop a fondness for calling people very offensive names. So they immediately after about a week of this, had to remove the contents of urban dictionary from the AI system, to revert it back to the standard where it was actually acceptable for general public use. I’ve noticed that GPT it is good for broad questions. But if you ask it this specific things, it tends to rapidly start to break down if you ask you for anything very detailed. The other thing to be aware of Metta is it gives a disclaimer that it has not been updated in about three years. So it’s knowledge ends around 2021, which is during the height of the COVID pandemic.

Metta Spencer 1:11:05

Yeah, yeah I know that, of course, it tells you that. And it also tells you Oh, I make mistakes, the very bottom of everything, it says, we make mistakes. Well, so does everybody make mistakes, Google makes mistakes, Wikipedia makes mistakes. I make mistakes, and you make more than your share. So I don’t I don’t blame people for making mistakes. If I don’t blame them anymore than I would blame, you know, anybody else? And of course, I have to check and sometimes it’s given me the a reference to I wanted a list of people writing books on a particular topic. And and it tells me the name of somebody who’s dead. And okay, so I have to realize it, he hasn’t heard yet that this guy died. So, okay, you know, so you make adjustments for the fact that people, even GPT 4 can make mistakes.

Adam Wynne 1:12:08

I was alarmed to hear of the Faculty of Law professor that was asking to draft responses to a court and it completely fabricated the sexual assault trial and made up references to legal journals that didn’t exist in cases that never happened. And that was extremely alarming to hear.

Metta Spencer 1:12:28

Okay, I don’t know. Anyway, I’ve led this conversation astray. And we’ve been neglecting a lot of people who probably want to talk about your particular issues. So let’s see who’s here. Some people have already given up hope and gone away people who were here a few minutes ago have gone away. Charles Tarboro, how are you and how are things in Vukovar, Croatia?

Charles David Tauber 1:12:57

Well, I don’t know if people know but I had a rather serious operation about a month ago.

Metta Spencer 1:13:05

You had you had a personal surgery?

Charles David Tauber 1:13:09

Yes, I had a my aortic valve was replaced. And so I’m still recovering a bit. You say your aorta?

Leda Raptis 1:13:19

I did too last January

Charles David Tauber 1:13:24

You had it last January?

Leda Raptis 1:13:25

Yes, January 30 Two bypasses part of the aorta, five hours open heart surgery,

Charles David Tauber 1:13:32

Something like that I had.

Leda Raptis 1:13:33

I know what you mean.

Metta Spencer 1:13:36

So you both had it?

Charles David Tauber 1:13:38

I certainly did and Linda is saying that she had it too. So but it’s encouraging to see that you’ve recovered.

Leda Raptis 1:13:46

Yes, and you have to exercise a lot. Yeah. I mean, I It’s been several months, but now what I do is skip rope to exercise.

Charles David Tauber 1:14:00

And how are you feeling?

Metta Spencer 1:14:03

Sorry.

Charles David Tauber 1:14:03

How are you feeling?

Metta Spencer 1:14:07

I am feeling much better than before. Sometimes I am really euphoric, I would say unless I need to take those drugs for heart failure. And then I feel tired, Dizzy, nauseated, no good. I keep I have tried three different ones. But I feel better without any drugs.

Charles David Tauber 1:14:31

So I will see a cardiologist in a couple of weeks. So we will see what she says.

Metta Spencer 1:14:40

Well, I didn’t know that you were missing. Charles, I, you’ve shown up almost every time. So maybe a month ago. Did you miss us? I don’t know.

Charles David Tauber 1:14:50

I was there for about 10 minutes.

Metta Spencer 1:14:52

I see well, welcome back. I didn’t realize you have been through the through the wringer. Okay. Thank you both.

Leda Raptis 1:14:59

I was feeling very, very well, after the first two months, I was flying, very happy. But then I wasn’t able to take drugs for blood free for. I mean, part of the problem could be that that’s unusual is that my blood pressure is too low. And those drugs, reduce those. I feel dizzy, but you may be happy with those. I don’t know. I’d like to ask Alan Haber how things are in Ann Arbor. What’s going on with you folks?

Alan Haber 1:15:35

Thank you Metta and all. I’m actually in a little village of 500 people in Burgundy, France for the last month and a half, we will be back in Ann Arbor after the Labor Day holiday.

Metta Spencer 1:15:51

Is that where Odile is from?

Alan Haber 1:15:53

That’s where Odile were in her family house so 1666 carved in the roof beam and we just…

Metta Spencer 1:16:01

I meant to ask you her name is Huguenot right? And hit me as it is this is this the name they adopted because of their religion. is she is one family a Huguenot family?

Alan Haber 1:16:19

Yeah, exactly where the Huguenot actual connection came in the family is a little unclear. There are some relics of that time. Now, but the founder of this house was the was the organizer, the radical socialist party in the revolution of 1848. So Odile comes from a vibration of changed the world and is definitely at the Center on most fronts of conformity.

Metta Spencer 1:16:59

What is village like, life like in Burgundy these days?

Alan Haber 1:17:04

Very, very, very quiet. And there’s no news of the outer world. It’s the old Commons is somewhat privatized that associates an agricultural area. And the bakery unfortunately closed. A little Taqueria across the street didn’t get enough businesses to support itself. Anyhow, it’s a small town

Metta Spencer 1:17:36

I once spent a week in a little town. Not too close to there though. It was called condom c o n d o m. I think this may have had some historical connection. But I…

Alan Haber 1:17:52

In the olden days, there were six factories here we heard that made wooden shoes. So no, none of that remains it’s an agricultural area, and many people work in the neighboring town of Chalon on the stone River So…

Metta Spencer 1:18:14

Well, it sounds like a good way to spend Augus. So I’m glad you’re enjoying it. Let’s go to California and talk to Marilyn and Bill. See how they…

Alan Haber 1:18:22

I did want to say a couple of things as to what’s going on in my own campaign and Ann Arbor since 2009, has been at the center of the city should be developed as a community Commons in the form of commonly pooled resources self managed by the users, rather than a possession of the city government or some corporation. And we’ve moved quite far on that. And we won the ballot question to establish this in the city charter, with the local politics have changed significantly. And me and the other principal, advocates for the commons have been purged out of the organization in a very unpleasant situation. So the war against the Commons has come to Ann Arbor just as I came to buy this book called the war against the Commons by Ian Angus that it published this year, which I greatly recommend that identifies as did my friends Peter Linebaugh and David Bollier and the commons is o central question in the organization of society build more around the non monetary than the monetary capitalist system. And not only was the dispossession on the common from the 12th and 13th centuries in the 16th and 17th century, but it is going on now even more so, particularly in Asia, Latin America and Africa, where the corporation and the government are taking over what has been traditional land farmed by the Indigenous people. And while they say this is more productive for the feeding the world, the fact is that these at present dispossessions are less productive, more inefficient. And as Elinor Ostrom who won the Nobel Prize in Economics, and for her book on the governance of the commons demonstrated, that was commonly pooled resources iself managed by the users are more productively managed. And I’ll just want to share the little ditty that many people know that the man or woman who wall locks up the man or woman who steals the goose and off the commons, that leaves the greater villain loose, who steals the commons from the goose. Thing, many people have heard that that’s in the 1600s. But this book includes with the wall locks up, the last verse of this, on the wall locks up, the man or woman who steals the goose off the commons.

Metta Spencer 1:21:33

Thank you, Adam, you’ve got your hand up.

Alan Haber 1:21:35

And, and then the geese will steal the commons lock, till they go and steal it back. And that is a struggle that is going on. Governments are stealing the commons. And until people organize, to get the commons back. And we are in increasingly difficult questions on so many fronts in this is at the base of much of the war that is going on. And so the struggle for the commons should be in one of your central questions in what is necessary for saving the world. And I’ll note also the Women’s International League for peace and freedom their disarm committee, has been dealing with peace questions. And they have several proposals now toward how to organize for a World Peace Treaty, a woman led organizational effort toward a peace treaty that engages all the outstanding questions and puts them on the peace table.

Metta Spencer 1:22:40

But what I want is somebody who can give me a solution of how you’re going to enforce any kind of international law, we already have a law forbidding aggression, that should take care of almost everything, including the war of Russia against Ukraine, which was in no, in every sense of the word an aggression, but there is no way to enforce it. And so why not have another treaty if you can’t enforce it?

Alan Haber 1:23:07

That is what that is what a treaty would develop. And one of one of the projects they’re considering called Project for enduring peace is who were described more accurately and effective, effectively, how there is an enforcement mechanism for agreements.

Metta Spencer 1:23:25

What’s your proposal for how to enforce international law?

Alan Haber 1:23:30

Look, I will, I will. I’ve only represented with a conversation that’s going on. And I’ll be glad at the next September, we’ll global to report on how this process was going on. I think it’s very important. As you know, I am a maker of the peace table. That because it really if there’s a treaty is going to be the meet, I have a meeting and there’ll be no meeting without a table. The table has to be something of beauty and design that is receptive to all outstanding questions.

Metta Spencer 1:24:05

I haven’t seen your your your tape mid mid Edo table. Is that it? Yes. No, I’m happy to look at it. Look, we’ve got three people waiting in line to speak. Adam speak quickly because I think somebody else and

Adam Wynne 1:24:20

Alan have you read Ursula Franklin’s music and the commons, it’s an interesting interpretation of how the Commons is being destroyed by noise proliferation. It’s a specific spin off of I think what you’re reading, and Ursula Franklin was very disturbed by the fact that whenever you go into a public space now you’re bombarded with noise, whether it be ambient music, commercial advertising, all sorts of different things, and how we’re losing that aspect of the Commons as well as the ability to go out and just enjoy peace and tranquility.

Metta Spencer 1:24:50

Okay.

Alan Haber 1:24:50

I would be happy if you could send me those references. Somehow in the chat or…

Adam Wynne 1:24:55

I will email them to you. Please do, please do

Metta Spencer 1:24:57

Okay, you can put stuff in the chat box, and everybody can see it, because I’ll put it up later. Charles Tauber And then Paul Werbos.

Charles David Tauber 1:25:04

Okay, just a couple of things we are experiencing here, the consequences of climate change. Today it was 46 degrees when I was walking.

Metta Spencer 1:25:20

Sorry, today what?

Charles David Tauber 1:25:22

I say it was 46 degrees, when I was walking today that’s one thing. The other thing is, as I continually say, every time on here, nobody is really dealing with the traumatic experiences and the conflict things, particularly in Africa. We’re talking here about Ukraine, and Europe, but we’re not. We’re not really talking of about what is happening in places like Congo, Liberia, etc. And this is extremely important. So, yeah. Also, I’m in the process of writing two laypersons guides, which we will put out on the website free as soon as they’re finished. One is on communication to self, it will be a self paced online course. And the other which I’ve just about started, is the one on psychology and trauma and how to deal with it at a very local level. So expect those things when when they come out? Yes, they can come, come pretty soon.

Metta Spencer 1:26:47

Good, good. We’ll take care of yourself now. Okay, lets go to Paul Werbos and then I want to greet Victor Kogan Yasny. So Victor, you’ll get a turn to speak in a minute. But Paul.

Paul Werbos 1:27:01

So I agree very strongly with his point about the Indigenous people, and the management of agriculture. There was a time two years ago when the IEEE gave me a mandate to talk to people who really know about all the dimensions of climate problems, at a level of depth, which was way beyond what I see in these lobby groups. And in that search, we discovered there is a Dr. [Steenbach?] in Brazil, who has done work on how to connect the traditional practices with a real science and economics. And some of the Indigenous practices lead to really serious advanced science, much more efficient than anything the big companies are trying to make a quick buck from in places like Brazil, I was hoping that a new president in Brazil would bring us back to groups like Steenbach(sp), there was a group called Noah’s fury in Brazil, which was the best group in the whole world. For putting these elements together. I feel very bad, I haven’t been able to put as much energy into climate lately because of the internet issues, which are also life or death. When you ask about the future of Ukraine, what happens when you’ve got drone fleets out of control attacking people you don’t know, that’s a little more urgent, but the climate issues are also life or death. And in the agricultural space in the Indigenous space, the practices used by native tribes can be adapted to real science. And I believe that Steenbach In Brazil, writing in Portuguese, had really critical ideas, the rest of the world could benefit from a lot. If only we worked harder to get the right information, from the grassroots to the policy level.

Metta Spencer 1:28:59

Well, is there somebody you can put me in touch with and I will have this person down and have a conversation on my talk show? Because I never heard…

Paul Werbos 1:29:08

Okay, I have just been told that I have to run off soon. But there is a website that’s in what I sent you on the seven grand challenges on that one pager which I sent you many times. There is a website building world.org, which has some of the overview of this IEEE effort were it led to and then there is much more detailed material, which I sometimes have sent you. The link is out there. With a couple of minutes, I could send you more but I’m not sure you want those details right now.

Metta Spencer 1:29:43

You mentioned the name Steenberger. Is that right?

Paul Werbos 1:29:46

I believe Steenbach

Metta Spencer 1:29:48

Steenbacher, Steenbach, I don’t know..

Paul Werbos 1:29:50

Steenbach.

Metta Spencer 1:29:50

I don’t know. Well, whatever. I’ll see if I can find it. Anybody else on this? On this screen know anything about that person? No. Well, I’ll hunt it down., okay, I like new people. Thank you so much, Paul. Let’s talk to Victor. Victor is in Moscow. I think aren’t you Victor. Hello.

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:30:11

Hello, hello. Hello.

Metta Spencer 1:30:13

Hi.

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:30:14

It Is a little bit late in Moscow. So it is about about midnight, in an hour or so. So what what would you like that I tell you? So

Metta Spencer 1:30:31

I want to know how things are going in Moscow, what you’re in, you know you’re a political type, you’re in touch with the Yabloko people I need to Well, I mean, you are you are the hit right in the center of the Yabloko. I don’t actually know much about Yabloko’s position about the war since the war began. I think everybody’s lying low. And I haven’t heard much. I haven’t heard a peep out of Yavlinsky. Tell me what Yabloko is doing. And and what you can afford to do what you can what you can’t do.

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:31:10

So the main thrust for Yabloko now is to campaign that Russia should leave in peace with its neighbors, first and second to defend political prisoners, because hundreds of people are sentenced to long terms of prison for their anti war position. So there are two tasks. So for and that is, I think, more or less enough for that moment. Very, very tragic and acute…

Metta Spencer 1:31:51

Well hold on, because if you’re able to say that, if you’re able to take a position that sounds like you are opposing the war.

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:31:58

So, in limited scale, yes, in limited scale, in very limited, but sometimes it is it is often it is very important. I think that for for for political prisoners, it is important that every month they get a lot of letters that are sent from Yabloko. I don’t know what what will be in future whether unfortunately, number of political prisoners is growing. So no signs that that it will diminish. And I think it is global task to talk about political prisoners.

Metta Spencer 1:31:58

How many are there?

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:32:33

So that is that is about 600 people throughout Russia, that sentence for seven years and more of prison just past year and this year, for their for their criticising of the war in Ukraine. So, six kinds of people are only only this past year and this year, are imprisoned for seven years. And for more long term. Seven years is the smallest the most short shortest term of imprisonment. So, another another way of repression that is more or less soft is is assigning people as so called foreign agents. So that are also many, many people that are called now foreign agents. They are not in prison, they are not under under investigation, but they are discriminated in their in their options. So I’m very worried what will happen next year, after after the plebiscite that is called presidential election, what will be the next step in battle with Ukraine and in internal political situation in Russian. So that is that is are two questions to two main questions. That are some hopes that that to me in some month is negotiation may start between Putin and Western leaders concerning Ukraine. That will be positive I think but it is very, very it is in secrecy nothing. Nothing for open is is safe.

Metta Spencer 1:34:59

Now how do you know this, is this is a rumor or do you

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:35:03

Rumors, absolutely rumors, absolutely rumors, but insisted rumors that previously they were no no such rumors and Erdogan are trying much to do that. So, but nobody knows something exactly, nobody knows. So, the big question is what will what will happen after after, after coming March in spring? What will happen with the with presidential elections? And further what will be the internal, what will be with the with the war situation, and what will be the internal development of Russia? Well, thank you, metta. It’s I’m very sorry, I’m really, really sorry, to what what is around me, and what is exactly now, and I will try to, I will try to rest a little bit.

Metta Spencer 1:36:16

Okay you rest, but if you feel like writing anything, of course, I want to remind everybody, that we have this website, and people aren’t using it enough. You really, if you go there, and you post something, it will you know, and it can create quite a good conversation, or quite a good discussion on the line. So please feel free to I think a section, there is a page on war and weapons. And you, you go to the comments section, I should put make it available on the at the end of this show. I’ll post if you just hang on when when you get watch the edited version, I’ll put up the links that you need to use to get directly to the comments at the place where you can post your comments. We have this conversation. So it’d be very helpful to to hear from you, Victor. And also know I did ask about Yavlinsky I haven’t heard a peep out of him. Does, is he okay, and as he’s speaking, So he’s he’s continuing to lead Yabloko. He is not chairman of the party. But but but he continues to be to be the leader, political leader, Will you send me, I’ll send you an email, would you send me his email address? So I can see…

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:37:54

I will do, I willl do that I will do that. Yes. He has no much room to to express his position. But we are we are together and we are we are still continuing to do something. And I consider important things. And I think that is of serious importance. For today and for the future. Yeah.

Metta Spencer 1:38:18

Okay.

Victor Kogan-Yasny 1:38:18

Thank you. Metta, thank you, thank you.

Metta Spencer 1:38:20

All right. appreciate having you here. Victor. You take care now. And let’s see, I want to give Marilyn and Bill a chance we only have about eight minutes.

Marilyn Krieger 1:38:30

Hi well actually, what Bill is doing is more exciting. What’s happened with him lately. So I’m going to I’m not what I’m doing right now is not as exciting as what he’s doing.

Metta Spencer 1:38:42

Okay. Bill.

Bill Leikam 1:38:45

Well, one of the things that I wanted to say was, it sounds to me like the our political leaders of our planet are on the verge of insanity. But sy, given that I had an incident arise on Thursday, I think it was for those who don’t know, I conduct a long term study of the gray fox. Well, in doing that, I also run across other critters that are out there. Now that what I’m really talking about is the web of life that we’re embedded in here, and one of the things that happened in this valley, Santa Clara Valley, was that in 1855, the last beaver was killed. And they have not they have only recently returned. Let me put it that way. And I have my trail cameras along Matadero Creek, and we had a pair of beavers move into there last year. Now everybody was waiting to see if this pair of beavers was going to have any babies. On Thursday, one of my trail cameras this is at night, picked up a baby beaver. outside of the creek it was it was on dry land. And that caused a big stir. It got into the press, into one of the local newspapers around here. And then it was picked up by ABC channels seven out of San Francisco, and distributed nationally. The story of this little beaver, a beaver hadn’t been seen in that creek for over 160 years. But now we have a little one, at least one, maybe more. And that’s going to improve the web of life in that whole ecosystem down there. And I’ll leave it just at that.

Metta Spencer 1:41:14

That’s good news. Right? Well, you need more than one. We got to go get some baby beavers someplace else and bring them to make friends with your baby beaver right?

Bill Leikam 1:41:24

Or well, they weren’t in a couple of years. That may baby beaver will disperse. And it will probably go north along the San Francisco Bay and come to inhabit the San Francisquito Creek which is just north from here. They are going to populate the full rim of the San Francisco Bay all the

Metta Spencer 1:41:54

How are you got to do that. You need some more more than one, don’t you?

Bill Leikam 1:41:57

Oh yeah. But it’s gonna take a few years to do that. They’re gonna do it on their own. I am not. I’m not gonna be able to step in there and…

Metta Spencer 1:42:06

You only have one baby beaver. You need. I know, physiology. I know. You gotta have two different kinds of sexes if you want babies, you gotta have two kinds.

Bill Leikam 1:42:17

Yeah, what’s gonna happen, what is happening, it’s in the process right now is that there’s a migration of beavers coming out of the South Bay. Guadalupe River, Coyote Creek that feed into the San Francisco Bay. And that’s where the Beavers are.

Metta Spencer 1:42:42

I thought you said there weren’t any? That this was a unique one.

Bill Leikam 1:42:47

Yeah, well since 19 prior to 1980. there were none and in 1980 the the California Department of Fish and Wildlife imported a group of beavers into Los Gatos Creek. Now, these beavers they’re in Matadero Creek, which is some miles away. have done their dispersal. They’re young that have dispersed. You’re going into the, it’ll be okay Metta!

Metta Spencer 1:43:23

Alright! Hooray for you, good thank you. Okay, listen we don’t have much time left. But I want to say hello to my dear longtime friend Ingrid Summerkorn who is muted. And and, and her she’s got her camera turned off too. Ingrid, so far as I see your name, though. So I know you’re here. And I’ve known Ingrid since well, let me think I think when I was at Harvard in 1970.

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:43:26

in the early 70s, it was…

Metta Spencer 1:43:52

The early 70s, that’s…

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:44:04

You do understand? If you undestand, I can’t.

Metta Spencer 1:44:06

Yeah, well, anyway, so are you in Hamburg?

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:44:10

Yes I’m still in Hamburg. And I am sorry. I came and I had to go again. And now I can’t see you any longer. Because something else…

Metta Spencer 1:44:19

I’ll talk, put this a gallery on so we can all look at each other. Here I am. And there you are. Ingrid is a retired professor of I think sociology of education if I’m not mistaken. And at the University of Hamburg, right?

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:44:40

Yes, that’s right.

Metta Spencer 1:44:41

Good, all right. How are things

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:44:42

{Inaudible] for all of your enjoyed listening to part of your conversation, so….

Metta Spencer 1:44:48

So tell me how things are in Hamburg or in Germany in general what’s going on in the world?

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:44:57

Oh gosh, even here our AfD our right wing party The Alternative for Germany, they are getting stronger and stronger by one of the population, you know, it’s autocratic societies or non democratic societies spreading and spreading. So I can’t talk about the whole of Germany as yet. Anyway, it’s getting people are this this disenchanted dissatisfied. And our coalition partner, the greens, specially the greens, they’re trying to do their best, but then we have the Liberals as part of the coalition. And they are geared to a special clientele you know to be so they don’t come don’t see eye to eye and lots of things. So that convey the picture of the image to everybody thinks we have got a government that can’t govern, because they only fight with one another and so on. I can’t talk about Germany, it’s too much of a problem.

Metta Spencer 1:46:03

But now you’re saying that since the election? Well, I mean, then present government’s only been in power for about a year. Right, you it’s not it’s found floundering is that the situation isn’t doing a very good job of it, or people are not happy with it, or what?

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:46:21

Both, I think they’re trying to do their best. But you know what, but then the liberals, they’re really so anxious and anxious that they came less than 5% of the electorate. In Germany, we have that what what you call it, that, that barrier, if you don’t get 5%, you don’t get into the pile into parliament or so. And so they’re really trying to strengthen their profile, they say no to more or less everything. For example, we just give you a tiny example. On our streets, we don’t have a limit to to 130 kilometres on the streets like France and all other European states and in the states too I don’t know about Canada, but I’m sure you can’t drive as fast as you want to on your own. And actually, …

Metta Spencer 1:47:15

Well, Germany is always allowed people to drive faster than I think they should have.

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:47:20

Exactly, I think but this, the Liberals who say no, because it wouldn’t be fair to tell other people what they should be doing.

Adam Wynne 1:47:27

There was just a big controversy here in Toronto, where we lowered the speeds on Main Streets from 50 to 40 to 30 kilometers an hour. Because they found that difference in even 20 kilometers an hour can save lives when people get hit by a car.

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:47:43

Exactly.

Metta Spencer 1:47:46

Okay, our time is up. But given Joe Hayward Haines, ,you’re the only person who hasn’t had a chance to speak. So you have about one minute if you have something you can say.

Jo Hayward-Haines 1:47:59

Big news here is the fact that we now have in Peterborough, 350 pollinator gardens planted. And just as a huge, it’s now become becoming a staple. And people are really seeing through the absurdity of lawns. And knowing that a beautiful pollinator garden can support our threatened. creatures that are pollinating like butterflies and bees and hummingbirds. I just saw hummingbird before this show started. So that’s the good news that people coming together and community can begin to make a difference.

Metta Spencer 1:48:46

Beautiful. Thank you. Okay, well, I have three minutes after four. So I usually try to let people go at four. But since I was a bit late getting started because of technical glitches, if anybody has a wise thought to impart, I’ll let you let you have a couple of minutes. Anybody have something urgent and important that we should share?

Jo Hayward-Haines 1:49:16

I do.

Alan Haber 1:49:17

Happy birthday, Metta.

Metta Spencer 1:49:20

Thank you.

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:49:21

No, not yet.

Jo Hayward-Haines 1:49:21

Oh.

Metta Spencer 1:49:22

Yes, I am going to be I’m going to be 92 on Tuesday.

Jo Hayward-Haines 1:49:27

Bravo.

Metta Spencer 1:49:28

The best is that peace magazine is now be turning 40. 40 years old magazine and we are turning pages. We’re going to have a new direction for the magazine to some extent. It’s still online. We’ve stopped publishing it as a paper publication a couple of years ago. But there are advantages to having an online because you can send it easily to people all over the world. So we could have a worldwide publication. And I hope that it will become so. But we will be focusing largely on giving more space to talking about several different global issues. All of the ones that project save the world chooses as our, our mandate, that is war and weapons, global warming, famine, pandemics, radioactive contamination, and cyber risks, and then three sectors of society where we need help, that is the economy, governance and human rights and civil society. So we will be having more articles by experts on these topics. And I hope that each story that we publish in the magazine, people, when you read about it, and you want to have a conversation, or you disagree with something that it said, you’ll go to the website and, and and use those pages to continue the conversation. So at the end of the show, I’m going to put up some links, so you’ll know where to go, if you want to, to comment on either this this conversation today, or any of the future topics that we as peace magazine, and as a project save the world will continue to address. So we’ve done 40 years, and we’re starting our next 40 year period. And, wish just well, 40 more years to go. So thank you all and it’s wonderful. In particular, it’s been about five years since I saw you Ingrid. So come and see me another time. All right. Thank you guys. And I’ll see you in a month, the last Sunday of every month.

Ingrid Summerkorn 1:52:01

Okay, [inaudible] well.

Metta Spencer 1:52:02

Indeed you too. Bye. I hope you’re watching this show from our website to save the world.ca Assuming that you are I can tell you how to post your own comments, or to read the comments of others or even the chat box from this issue. Just watch the little box that I put above. Project save the world produces these forums. This is episode 568. You can watch them or listen to them as audio podcasts on our website tosavetheworld.ca people share information there about six global issues. To find a particular talk show it or its title or episode number in the search bar, or the name of one of the guest speakers. Project Save the World also produces a quarterly online publication, Peace magazine. You can subscribe for $20 Canadian per year. Just go to pressreader.com on your browser and in the search bar enter the word peace. You will see buttons to click to subscribe.

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Episode 568 Global Town Hall Aug 2023

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